[dai56]

Now i have been wondering if there is some sort of simple formula those of us miles away from the sea could use?
we know saltwater is more boyant than fresh so a lure that suspends in fresh would float in salt!
is there say a countdown we could use say an inch a second sinking in fresh to come up with a lure that would be suspending in salt ?

I have also been wondering if a wtd lure like the super spook would be more affective with a touch of weight added just enough to suspend it in freshwater
over to the experts dai

 

[Marc D...]

I know that you can buy "Sea in a box" from aquarium centres dai, (so you can tune up your plugs) which alot of the bait bashers bring there peeler crab on in, or you can try and work out the best formula from this link.. http://crabbywiki.com/tiki-index.php?pa ... lt%20water

 

[dai56]

I use it for hatching brine shrimps to feed my fish but without airation[spelling] it's hard to keep it suspended

 

[Andy Marquis]

I have found that a bucket of sea water behaves differently to the actual sea, the water in the bucket made the plug more buoyant than in the sea. Not sure why unless my bucket of sea had got contaminated at some point but unlikely as I keep barrels of sea water for my "pet" crabs.

 

[Marc D...]

I have found that a bucket of sea water behaves differently to the actual sea, the water in the bucket made the plug more buoyant than in the sea. Not sure why unless my bucket of sea had got contaminated at some point but unlikely as I keep barrels of sea water for my "pet" crabs.

I wonder if the water being condensed into such a confined space has anything to do with it? maybe the water pressure is different than in the sea, therefore making the plug more buoyant?

 

[Keith White]

Suspending Lures..

A blog article http://www.jerseybassguides.com/bassfish/blog1.php/2009/11/13/lure-tech-2-keeping-you-in-suspension
started this discussion and I've copied and pasted the most relevant 'on topic' material from that older thread..

Now i have been wondering if there is some sort of simple formula those of us miles away from the sea could use?
we know saltwater is more boyant than fresh so a lure that suspends in fresh would float in salt!
is there say a countdown we could use say an inch a second sinking in fresh to come up with a lure that would be suspending in salt ?

I have also been wondering if a wtd lure like the super spook would be more affective with a touch of weight added just enough to suspend it in freshwater
over to the experts dai

I was wondering the same thing and found something on a dive site stating that they required 2.5% more total weight to be neutral in salt compared to fresh. i.e. 100KG person + suit + tanks etc would need an extra 2.5kg in salt to be neutral.

Not sure how that converts to lures though and waiting for some sticky lead to arrive so I can test the theory out. Bet it ain't that simple but seems like half a gram extra on an 18g plug is somewhere to start...

i don't think it will be that easy to do,being as saltwater can change it's density depending on salinity levels and each lure may weigh slighty differant.

i think in fresh(distilled) water @ 4 degree's it's 1gr cm3,so if you have a lure that is less than 1gram cubed then it floats if its heavier then it sinks,if you knew what the density of the seawater is around your area then maybe it could be done,i need to weigh 1 litre of seawater to find out it's density.

I checked the salinity of the Bristol channel and it is approx 25 g per litre during the summer, so does this mean that if you use a 25grm lure that you would have to add 2.5% or 0.625 grams to make it buoyant neutral???

Still, since I WANT this to work, just make sure you perhaps tune your lures properly in freshwater first (even if it means putting lighter hooks and split rings on - weigh them, then add the weight above (2.5%) to adapt them for salt. Don't just assume to start with that a lure is already perfectly balanced in freshwater. Some will be more accurate from the start than others, and some may even already be ok in salt. Could take a while but hopefully with some experiments you'll get there.

weigh 1 litre salt water,divide by 1000,this then gives you weight per gram of saltwater,thus gives you it's density.

then remove hard ware from lure,put in water to see how much displacement there is.

IE: a 13cm lure could have 30cm3 of volume,because of it's shape

so if saltwater weigh's say(i don't know yet) approx 1.2grams per ml
then you will need your lures overall cm3 x 1.2grams to make it neutral

Things IN saltwater as opposed to fresh are more buoyant.

A freediver at 8 mtrs that could be 2lb in freshwater and as much as 16lb in salt to offset the buoyancy of say, a 5mm suit.

Try this test on a floating minnow bait.

lay it flat in a tank of freshwater. see how it sits IN the water quite well and see how much bib/lip it has in contact.

Take a picture..

Do the same in salt water..

It rides MUCH higher in nearly all cases.

without getting to tech, plugs have been designed, (supposedly) to ride properly in the water to give the right amount of roll and wobble.

In salt, wobble is reduced at slow speeds and roll is increased.
This is why many plugs roll out, they don't own enough keel weight.

Like I've said elsewhere, add keel weight, remove roll.

Yes, sometimes a plug showing it's belly to a fish is a desirable trait but, if it rolls out, you have no bite, no wobble and you lose all the action.

We need plugs designed for the salt from concept up, not hand me down designs loaded with the cheapest salt resistant hooks and fresh packaging.

Well I had a go at some balancing last night with a bucket of sea in the lounge. Nothing like home comforts, TV, warm cuppa and fishing!! Cool.

Anyways... Not suspending lures as I don;t think I own any but had a go with some floaters which float too fast or ride too high in the water to work proper.

The "new" Storm Jointed Thunderstick being one of my bugbears. The new models which apparently come from the same moulds ride really high in the water and don't work like the old ones used to (different material maybe) so on a cheap lure I set to work... Stuck some proper hooks on it. No difference. So to work with some sticky lead strips.

I eventually got to adding 3 grams of sticky lead when it seemed to sit better in the water and not on top of the water. Have to test it soon and see.

Also tried it with a TM175 to make it sit lower at rest.

The main one though was the Angel Kiss EXS (pearl colour really fishy action). The problem with this lure is that it is so bouyant you can't stop reeling as it whizzes back up and if you want to work really slow there's no bite so it doesn't work.

Took quite a bit of weight to get it to sit better, just need to test I haven't killed the action now.

wow m8, excellent !

Go to it my boy.

Sounds like you are really getting hold of the idea.

You can add weight to plugs without killing too much action in a few ways.

You can 'lead plug' the lure, or 'oil fill' the lure, or, you can use heavier hooks, split rigs etc but the latter 2, if dropped low on the 'keel' will hurt roll.

Is roll important ?

Another way to get a plug to bite m8 is to make sure the diving vane has a sharpened edge. This way, they dive faster etc..
You can, add lexon to lips, completely change the lip, change it's angle, alter the whole plug balance to get tail first sinkers, head first sinkers, suspenders of various types, tail waggler's (where the head stays nearly still !)

If you want to weight a floater and it hasn't got a very hollow body, the plug it method with extra weight is the best option. You need to centre that weight around the plugs balance point.

However, this balance point is quite reliant on the external hardware used too.

K&K, as posted before I have noticed that my two Z-claws sit diferently in the water, the mullet sits lower than the Chartreuse. Do you find if you have two identical lures, same model, colour, batch etc that they need identical tuning or are their still diferences.

What got me thinking was Micks suggestion of the posibility of a forum lure made in the colour/model of our own choosing from Duo, Tacklehouse or Xorus. Just wondered if you could advise on the chosen lures tuning needs wether the company would incorporate this into the lure.

Could well be getting ahead here, The forum lure could even be used in the logo, A different pattern each year, ohh help me it just goes on and on.

Are your two Z-Claws the same Andy?Is one FW and one SW? Well they are all SW in fact (I think) but the rattlin ones are marked SW.

As for you asking about the K twins tuned lures, ahead of you there mate, we be taking some to Nantes for the guys to see, to show them what is needed, lets hope they love it and start taking the uk lure market serious, we want our own plugs in our own colours. So exciting init!!

Hmmmmmm? i like your thinking Andrew, would it be possible to design an oil filled lure that you fill yourself in order to get the right buoyancy?, (or are oil filled lures just used for topwater WTD's?)

No not at all mate, the Sebile Koolie minnow was oil filled, note I wrote was, as they usually leak and break and spill oil all over your bag. Shame cos the Koolie had a great action. I wonder if oil filled lures that you can add to are possible? Maybe just too fidly.

I was thinking along the lines of having a syringe to just "Top up" or "Extract" the desired amount as you stand in a rock pool to adjust your lure, but if the lure has a habit of breaking then scratch that idea.

[quote="st ouen]Or a built in bung that can be unscrewed? Could a plug be drilled and tapped to take a grub screw? Might give it a go.[/quote]

This thread having a post reminded me that I have now used in real life the lures I "adjusted".

1st up. TM 175 in dayglo orange colour.

I added about a gram of sticky lead strip just ahead of the front hook after trying a few combinations in the bucket of water, which meant it just floated at about 30 degrees tail down. Seemed fine in the bucket of sea water.

Shame though is that a bucket appears rather different to the actual sea. Not sure why as the bucket of water did after all come out of the sea but hey, live and learn.

So what it did in real life was actually fine, it turned into a suspending lure which after retrieving as normal sits about 2 to 3ft under the surface and just moves about slightly head up with the water. not what I intended bit as I fish the twitch and pause method quite a bit it's ideal for that.

2nd up - Storm Jointed Thunderstick in Blue/Chrome

I guess we will all know these ones?? My best catcher over the years by a very long way due to the superb action. Problem is when Storm stopped making them I had limited supply which ran out. Then I found a supply from a one-off run from the US. problem is they used same mould but must have been a different mix of plastic so they were VERY buoyant.

I actually ended up adding nearly 3 grams of lead to this (all up front) and it still floats in the real sea, head and part of shoulders on the surface, front part floating, tail sinking. I also added some proper hooks, think they are VMC standard replacement hooks, size 1 by the looks of them (should really note things like that).

best bit it that it now does what I want. For starters it casts a million times better now (not planned!) and no loss of action, still that superb winding snake like action. difference is that it doesn't sit on the surface and has some bite at lower speeds, it does still surface closer in until you get the rod nearly to water level but hey, can't have it all.

This is what we need i have some super spooks here that i'm thinking of filling with oil to see if they will suspend they are very bouyant out of the box but can be made to work just sub surface in fresh[estury water]
the reason i'm thinking of oil is the lures are full of air now so although oil floats it's not as bouyant as air and it should dampen out the rattle a good bit [i don't know about you but i feel some lures are too noisy

the trick to weighting is in finding a lures..

balance point.

 

[Keith White]

hi guys...

Just moved over some stuff and merged it into this 'new' thread I didn't previously see.

Lets continue on with this great topic..

Thanks..

 

[Marc D...]

I have found that a bucket of sea water behaves differently to the actual sea, the water in the bucket made the plug more buoyant than in the sea. Not sure why unless my bucket of sea had got contaminated at some point but unlikely as I keep barrels of sea water for my "pet" crabs.

I wonder if the water being condensed into such a confined space has anything to do with it? maybe the water pressure is different than in the sea, therefore making the plug more buoyant?

So does sea water become more "dense" Keith (if that is the correct terminology) when it is placed in a confined area such as a bucket, resulting in a lure "seemingly" being more buoyant?

 

[Keith White]

So does sea water become more "dense" Keith (if that is the correct terminology) when it is placed in a confined area such as a bucket, resulting in a lure "seemingly" being more buoyant?

No, i don't think so.

However...

Surface tension and local atmospheric pressure will make a visible depression in a bucket.
Moving stuff above sea level too will have a small effect I think.

Temperature will be the biggest factor. I'll bet you sea water cooled after being taken from the ocean.
This would make it..more dense.

 

[Marc D...]

No, i don't think so.

However...

Surface tension and local atmospheric pressure will make a visible depression in a bucket.
Moving stuff above sea level too will have a small effect I think.

Temperature will be the biggest factor. I'll bet you sea water cooled after being taken from the ocean.
This would make it..more dense.

Hmmm?, you've got my brain cell working again bud', wouldn't "coloured" water be more dense than clear water, as i should imagine if you tune your lures in clear water and then go and fish where there is a build up of plankton or soil particles, then i should imagine that even the best tuned lures would not perform in the desired way, (ie) a suspending lure would just float to the surface..

 

[Keith White]

Lets say you get neutral at 5ft deep in X degree's of salt water.

even a 4 degree swing will only turn a suspender into a very slow floater (1" per sec maybe at 3 degree's under X)
The reverse would be true in warmer water.

In normal use, a lure that is CLOSE to neutral at a mid range temperature is a useful tool indeed.
Used as is, under a normal 10 second stop time, that might only equate to the lure moving 10" in the water column.

However, with tiny alterations or by having suspenders rigged for spring/autumn and then summer, you only need
2 of each to cover a fairly wide temperature range.

 

[dai56]

Now i've been thinking again if we inject/fill the lures with oil it will be a problem to get a good seal what we want is something that won't affect the araldite or whatever we seal the lure with
now the idea i've had is to use sea water would this work has it been tried?

i wonder dai

 

[kevin white]

Now i've been thinking again if we inject/fill the lures with oil it will be a problem to get a good seal what we want is something that won't affect the araldite or whatever we seal the lure with
now the idea i've had is to use sea water would this work has it been tried?

i wonder dai

dai,you can use what ever you like, as for sealing the lure, i use a small hot nail to make a hole and then to seal it afterwards by melting the plastic over the small hole, hope that makes sense.

kev

 

[dai56]

Yes that makes perfect sence to me

 

[Andy Marquis]

Lure Tuning...

It surprised me to see an article on suspending lures requiring tuning by adding lead "dots" to lures in the BASS magazine this quarter. Interesting take on it. I always saw BASS (I am a member) as a little "set in their ways" in not embracing newer ideas (I do not mean to sound derogatory there) so was happy to see this.

Anyway, not the reason for the post...

I had a moment of inspiration yesterday while wondering round B&Q looking for something else.

Soldering iron and lead based solder... I assume the iron might melt pure(ish) lead from a sheet of the stuff off a roof which I have as well?? Well doesn't matter, was only £11 for it so I got one with the idea of adding some lead to the hook shafts allowing better control of the weight spread on a lure. Provided it doesn't need that much lead.

I'm between sheds at the moment, new one just arrived to replace very leaky rotten one so I will have a go when I am up and running again.

Anyone have any thoughts on this method or did I waste £11??

 

[Keith White]

Great idea..
I love it.

Alot of guys have, in the past used the rubber core split sinkers, removed the rubber core and then,
squeezed the weight around the hook shanks. Some lures DO take this amount of weight but, be careful
to make sure you attach any weight in or around the plugs balance point.

Ok, little tip here, it might even appear in a later BASS magazine article LOL

Get a fish tank, deep sink, bath, use freshwater if you like, it doesn't matter, ok.

Get a decent sized weight, flat and quite heavy, say 5oz. then, form a loop from thick braid
on the end of a 3 or 4" length of line that attached to the weight.
Sink the weight, making sure the whole loop will be submerged when you now, slide your plug
into the loop UNDER THE WATER.

Adjust your plug, forwards, or backwards, hooks etc all ON the plug. Make any loop big enough to
get over the whole thing. You will find, by careful adjustment that most decent floating or, purported
suspending lures will, at such shallow depths, even in freshwater, be buoyant so, you can find the spot
on the plug where it rides parallel.

When you have found where this balance point is, this is where you add weight, or, equal amounts
of weight either side of this balance point. I find a triangular pattern of sticky dots or slivers of sticky
weight etc around that point of balance pays off 'ON THE LURE BODY' if alot of weight is needed.

Anyway, find that point where the loop holds the plug level then, grip the loop AND plug, lift it out of the water
and mark, with a waterproof pen, exactly opposite on the lures underside, where that point is.

Remember, weight on the hook shanks is adding 'keel' weight and will deaden roll. Weight on the body itself
but equidistant around the balance point won't affect lower keel weight so much as we are inside the plugs
outer partial rotating weight zone so roll, may even be enhanced. If this happens, and you get a plug rolling out
due to added equidistant weight, relieve the plugs bib using a dremel. Right at the point where the bib meets the
lure body, relieve, equally, a small half moon concave. 1mm either side can reduce unwanted roll out and help a
plug track well at increased speeds. Tideminnow's and other narrow bib designs are rarely affected but, their overall
weight requirement to go 'suspender' are quite minimal anyway.

Hope this helps..

 

[Andrew Wilson]

Great ideas guys, I recon Your £11 will be be put to good use FG.