[Tim Murphy]

First off, I'm not an experienced plugger but these are my thoughts:
Trebles are just too brutal for my liking, and my thinking is that I haven't and don't use trebles in any other fishing so why use them in lure fishing. Also, each individual hook is very small aren't they? People are using 7/0s on SPs when a single hook off a treble is about a size 2 or 1.
And I wonder how much it affects the action. I'm thinking that because there's less keel weight and less drag you might get more of a rolling action, which might not be such a bad thing???

 

[Dave Irving]

Tim,
Research in salmon spinning has thrown doubt over the single is better for the fish arguement. A single hook can cause just as much damage as a treble, due to leverage on the single hook causing the entry wound to be ripped open. Where with a treble the same load is spread over three points, causing much less ripping.
So if it really about fish damage/release survival then barbless trebles might be "better" for the bass.

 

[Carl B]

i squeeze all barbs back on all hooks these days especaily trebles, on the small metals like the naburas unhooking pollock is alot faster and far less damage to the fish, same with jigheads especially with the wrasse

 

[Tim Murphy]

Tim,
Research in salmon spinning has thrown doubt over the single is better for the fish arguement. A single hook can cause just as much damage as a treble, due to leverage on the single hook causing the entry wound to be ripped open. Where with a treble the same load is spread over three points, causing much less ripping.

Cheers Dave, but if a single hook on a split-ring can rotate almost 360 degrees there wouldn't be much leverage would there whereas one hook of a treble fighting against another hook would produce leverage??? Call me Mr Sceptic but who did the research? (no disrespect to you Mr Irving!)

Anyway, that wasn't what I was really focusing on, I was thinking about times when one treble's in the fish's mouth and one is in it's eye, gill cover, angler's hand:!: etc.

Anyone compared the action on a single-ified plug against a standard plug?

 

[Dave Irving]

Tim,
I believe it was the Atlantic Salmon Federation in the US, And single/trebles tied to mono was the bases for the test So flex above the hook was taken into account, I believe similar results were found in either Norway or Sweden. Trust me these guys take catch and release VERY seriously.
Longer shanked singles, lever against the hook hold, with the fulcrum being any hard tissue in the fishes mouth/entry point of the hook. Also single hooks penetrate deeper than a treble.
So would you rather be stabbed with a fork or a knife??

Totally agree about accidental damage from additional trebles though, often cause more danage than the hook hold. Many people remove the middle treble from plugs for that reason.

There would be some change in action from switching to singles on a plug-more roll would be my bet. But I seriously doubt it would be enough of a change to prevent a bass from attacking the plug.

 

[Tim Murphy]

Cheers Dave, food for thought. It's not nearly as clear thought as I imagined, I'll chew it over.....

 

[James Davis]

I can't speak for all Japanese lure design houses but I know for a fact that the better ones take testing very, very seriously. From concept to initial wooden design to initial testing, back to the drawing board, alterations, back to testing, first plastic design, thousands of hours of testing by pro staff, feedback, further alterations then on to the mould stage which iteself takes ages and is very costly.

Nearly all of this done with trebles. But having said all of that, if you could use a single that is the same weight as say the Owner ST46 treble or whatever with the same shank length then surely the action won't be affected at all?

However, there simply has to be a reason why pretty much all the lure manufacturers use a treble rather than a single as catch and release is taken seriously in most of Japan.

 

[Andy K]

"However, there simply has to be a reason why pretty much all the lure manufacturers use a treble rather than a single as catch and release is taken seriously in most of Japan. "

This is purely speculation and solely my own opinion, but I would imagine the main reason that trebles were originally used, and are still used today, is purely because of their hooking power. A treble hook will find a piece of available skin / flesh a lot faster and easier than a single hook, any day of the week!

 

[Tim Murphy]

This is purely speculation and solely my own opinion, but I would imagine the main reason that trebles were originally used, and are still used today, is purely because of their hooking power. A treble hook will find a piece of available skin / flesh a lot faster and easier than a single hook, any day of the week!

That hits the nail on the head for sceptical old me, more hookups no matter how they're hooked means better lure dunnit?

Nearly all of this done with trebles. But having said all of that, if you could use a single that is the same weight as say the Owner ST46 treble or whatever with the same shank length then surely the action won't be affected at all?

I've getting the Decoy Pluggin Singles from Mr Fish (they're not on the website) and while these won't be as heavy as a treble, they are longer so will sit lower therefore will lower the centre of gravity. I'd imagine the weight wouldn't be an issue, I really can't see how less drag could affect the lure...

 

[Dr.Thomas k]

Anyone compared the action on a single-ified plug against a standard plug?

yep, my seatrout plugs
http://www.thelureforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=18&thumb=1&d=1264756565

(falkfish Spöket, 18g) come normally with treble, but I changed to single hook. Here it does not influence the action, or truly I can not see any difference.

Think it is different if youve got two or three trebels. Tried to change trebles on my Daiwa Saltiga SP Minnow and on my Feed shallows and both do run different. So I changed back to trebels on these. Maybe I have a try with a larger Gamakatsu single as soon as they arrive here. Weight of the hook must be a point.

Cheers
Thomas

 

[Tim Murphy]

This is the thread (5th post) over on sea-angling-ireland that got me rattling on about this...

 

[trev richardson]

Tim,
The simple answer here is go and try it and if you like it use it yourself.........:-D:-D

Don't try and justify yourself using it by saying it does less damage or is safer or is nicer to fish and make it look like everyone else is wrong or more cruel because they use trebles. I know that's probably not the point you are trying to make or at least I hope so but it is begining to look that way.
Whether it is or not, is not the question does it catch as much fish??? that is yet to be seen and is very difficult to assess. As for using trebles nearly all of us do with barbs flattened or not and I'm quite happy to keep using them. ;-);-)

 

[Tim Murphy]

Yes and no Trev :!: As I've said, the skeptical part of me thinks that the lure companies put trebles on because of the image the hooks present.

I'm never going to (publicly!)criticise anyone's techniques but was just trying to open a debate on the relative merits and failings of one versus t'other.

I had assumed that trebles were potentially more damaging but Dave's points about the Atlantic Salmon Federation's tests are good and can't/won't be ignored.

But Rapalajoe's point :

Treble is actually a bunch of small hook bind together and its make them look bigger.Small hook have smaller gape and shallower throat,hence making less superior in holding power.Yes ,you can use bigger treble,but that will hampered ur lure and in some case you will get a suspended lure from a floater and a sinking lure from a suspended lure.Treble is a lots more heavier than single.
Treble have a poor penetration abilities compare to single.If one of the point landed on the bonny parts or jaw bone,theres no way of the other two will have a perfect penetration even the other two point is on the soft spot of the fish mouth.The one that landed on the bone will prevent a good perfect penetration on the other two point.
What happened when theres no good penetration??
What i mean of good penetration is the hook penetrate the the mouth of the fish to the gape or throat of hook which are design for holding.When this happened,theres very less chance to no chance at all for the fish to pry open the hook no matter how hard its struggle and used the lure body for point of leverage.Yes,fish use ur lure body as point of leverage while they thrashing around to escape the hook.In the case of single,they re easily to strike home for a solid hook up.

IMO, can't be ignored either...

 

[James Davis]

Tim, not a great insight by any means, but I emailed an owner of a lure company who started the business in the late 70's so it's safe to say he knows his stuff.

Anyway, this is what he said when I asked him why the majority of lures are designed with treble hooks:

Hi James;

The main reason is:

Lure with treble hook has more possibility of landing fish, or more chance to
have numbers of hit than single hook.

We have some lure with single hook like trout lures, because there are more
regulations in these area ; hook should be single hook or single hook barbless.

 

[David Brown]

I think it is the head treble or first of the three trebles that seems to foul hook the Bass. In my limited experience and more from what I've read, Bass like to hit the lure from the side, it is most likely then to connect with the middle treble. To reduce collateral damage to the fish, particularly eyes and gill covers it makes sense to remove the front treble, increase the size of the middle to add weight to maintain correct depth in the water and then install a small rear treble to try and maintain front to back balance. If you want to balance this rear one you can always add lead wire (available from fly fishing shops used in fly-tying) or crimp a shot either side of the split ring eye. I am sure I read this in a Mike Ladle article in a recent edition of Sea Angling Magazine.
I have modified my White Bonnie 128 this way and if anything it seems to behave even better on the surface (probably more accident than design I'd agree). I might have to be careful though, for some reason seagulls seem hell bent on it. So far they have pulled out of their dive last minute. But I definitely don't want to start catching those b******s. Has any one caught a gull yet? Do you have to reel it down from the sky?

 

[Mark Sleep]

The gulls I have landed in the past have taken mainly off the top, though younger ones will also go subsurface. Nothing deeper running than a Feed Shallow though. They take to the air quite readily but are easier played by bringing them onto the water and retrieving very quick, hoping nobody notices. Try playing a Cormorant on livebait, it tried to fly first, then went subsurface.

Re the treble, I hardly ever get three points of the hook into the fish, let alone more than one set of trebles, so I dont think the argument about applying weight over three points holds water?

 

[David Brown]

Thanks for the advice on birds - its obviously quite common.
Re the weighting issue: - I probably wasn't too clear. The reason for the added weights is to re-balance the lure and get it to swim properly after changing the sizes of the the hooks and in this the case of removing one entirely. Obviously removing a hook from the front is going to the sit the lure right up vertical. so you put the smaller hook on the back in place of the large one (because you do catch on this one too for sure), and add some counterbalance to the front with the lead. The bigger one in the middle is usually under the center of gravity in a 3 treble lure and is made bigger to add overall weight to make up for the reductions front and back.
I hope this better communicates my point - probably not! there's a reason I'm a builder and not a teacher!
The Bass in my avatar picture had all three trebles snagged into its side, could be the way I played it though, anyway had to dispatch it swiftly and ate it that night and the next - yum yum. And I have had schoolies munch all three hooks of the rear treble on my Patchinko, 2 arms in the bottom lip 1 in the top - nightmare to release, as I couldnt get my thumb in there. However I agree, this is not the norm - but just food for thought?

 

[Andy K]

Yep, caught a "shi*e hawk" the other day on a patchinko. 4 gulls decided they wanted it and just like when fish feel the competition, their sense of danger or whatever seemed to go right out of the window. By the time I dragged this gull across the surface of the water and climber down from the structure I was on to unhook it, some female who was walking along the promenade had seen me retrieving the gull across the waters surface. She went ape droppings at me. Accused me of deliberately trying to catch gulls etc and pretty much called me every name she could think of. This was met by my less than gentlemanly way of asking if she really thinks I will spend the best oart of £20 on a lure to catch a gull when I can go to the local store, but a loaf of bread for a quid and ctach dozens of the things??? Or words to that effect anyway.

Going back to the hook issue tho, I have wondered whether it would be feesible to replace trebles with very strong pattern, small barbless hooks?? When I was a kid, the smaller you went in hook size, you could pretty much guarantee that you were going down in hook strength too. But if you look around, there are plenty of small hooks of incredible strength. Look at those used by carp hunnters. A size 4 (and smaller) hook thats more than perfectly capable of hauling in a 40lb+ carp. Or even the specialist small hooks used for catching huge catfish.
Even tho I haven't seen the catfish patterns, in the flesh as it were, I would imagine that they would carry enough inherant weight / mass to quite easily replace most of the trebles. This should cover the weight / balance issue fairly ok, but more importantly it should allow a good rate of hook ups still but with the massive benefit of getting less weed / rock hook ups. It stands to reason that with only 1 third the amount of hook points being trolled thru the water, then unwanted hook ups / snaggings etc should be amply reduced too. Another massive benefit, along these lines, to using single hooks is that they can be rigged weedless so as to avoid even more snags / weed etc.

All I need to do now - I think - is to find said single hooks with big enough eyes so as to allow for the use of a split ring.

 

[David Brown]

I use small trebles from salmon tube flies - but you got me thinking - I wonder how a sea-trout double would work. My main concern with a single is it would need to be mounted in some way so that it does not lie flat with the lure? But a double would sit quite nicely.

 

[Andy K]

Think about how the lure's hook attachment eyes / loops / rings or whatever are positioned upon the lure. Do they run inline with the lure, or do they lay across its length? Most of mine, in fact all of mine except the Yamoto OSP, all have their hook attachment points set so they are in line with the lure. Probably to improve their hydrodynamics. All of my single hooks, have their eyes formedso that they are 90 degrees to the hooks bend. Using one of these with a lure (except my OSP) would leave the hook laying so that its point came out of one side or the other of the lure.
What would be needed, to begin with, would be to have single hooks made so that the eye and the bend lay parallel to each other. that would allow for mounting a hook so that it lay permanently pointing away from the lure. Although if you could manage to fit two hooks to one of the lures hook mounting points, then you could have them pointing out to opposite sides of the lure at the same time. Perhaps doing something like this with a "forward" mounted hook(s) or "middle" mounted hooks(s) but employing the use of a heavy gauge circle hook at the rear of the lure. This will be the last point of contact with the fish, anyway. Fish grabs lure, fish turns away, angler strikes or does nothing and the lure still "slides" thru the fishes mouth to the back end of the lure before its pulled free of the fishes mouth. Hence why this point would carry the main and strongest hook. A circle hook or hydrid circle would be best as these hook the "scissors" of a fishes mouth really well. In fact, I'm fairly sure that's what they are designed to do. If we could get more hook ups in the scissors and from a single strong hook, then thats gotta be a million % better tan a treble sticking holes in the fish and tearing up other parts of the fish too.