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Nice one Keith.

All of mine have been after dark this season.

Saying that, I think I probably speak for most people when i say I equally don't mind going out in daylight knowing I have less chance of success. Stupid perhaps, but it is much more relaxed (no planning difficult trips over dark rocks or worrying about rogue waves (common here)). Like the Surface lure thread recently, in the same way daylight allows for a more relaxed fishing style with less to worry about. The amount of effort and thought you/anybody puts in to their fishing will be directly proportionate to the amount of fish they catch, but everybody has their comfort zone. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the points you're making about dark being the most productive time, because you're 100% right! I can imagine you sighing in disbelief that people continue to belt lures out when they have little chance of fish, or even make comments like this one, but not everybody will catch on to the effectiveness of this type of thing. Just like skishing. Those that sit up and listen (and they should) will take great steps forward. Keep up the good work. People, probably more slowly than you'd like, will eventually get there...
 

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Saying that, I think I probably speak for most people when i say I equally don't mind going out in daylight knowing I have less chance of success. Stupid perhaps, but it is much more relaxed (no planning difficult trips over dark rocks or worrying about rogue waves (common here)). Like the Surface lure thread recently, in the same way daylight allows for a more relaxed fishing style with less to worry about. The amount of effort and thought you/anybody puts in to their fishing will be directly proportionate to the amount of fish they catch, but everybody has their comfort zone.
Spot on there Ben. Fair play to those that do it but it's not for everyone. For me at present, every mark I visit is new and unknown. Stumbling around blind in the dark would get me into trouble pretty fast.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Stupid perhaps, but it is much more relaxed (no planning difficult trips over dark rocks or worrying about rogue waves (common here)). Like the Surface lure thread recently, in the same way daylight allows for a more relaxed fishing style with less to worry about. The amount of effort and thought you/anybody puts in to their fishing will be directly proportionate to the amount of fish they catch, but everybody has their comfort zone.
This is where we differ Ben.
Night fishing is no more dangerous than daytime fishing. Often, less so. Also, it's amazing what you learn to see in the dark after just a half dozen or so trips.
I do agree with the Effort:Reward ratio to a point. A guy can put in stacks and stacks of effort and get little return. The guys out there right now are proving it each year, over and over.
However, We might put in, a hour or 2 here, a focused 20 minutes there and, the fishing is aimed at specifics. (This is where 'pattern fishing' knowledge pays off big time).

You might cross rocks, gullies etc by day in heavy swells but ignore a 4ft deep beach in bright daylight. So, fish them at night. You don't need lights, nor will you fall over and you might just start to find fish. Area's completely barren by day can come alive by night.

Spot on there Ben. Fair play to those that do it but it's not for everyone. For me at present, every mark I visit is new and unknown. Stumbling around blind in the dark would get me into trouble pretty fast.
First off, like I told Ben. Night fishing is all about perceived danger. No one goes stumbling around anywhere.
As for fair play...
Well, yea, fair play but...

Regardless of what you read elsewhere, Bass stocks are more threatened now than ever before. If people continue to impart the same effort for forever diminishing returns, the sport will not survive. End of story. All the best intent in the world won't stop it imploding because it will all be based upon hype and hollow promise.

This is why we have embraced HRF and LRF, to enhance the catch regardless of species.
Lure fishing is more than watching a topwater plug splash about for hours on end. Maybe not for you, maybe not for the mainstream but, blanking teaches people nothing.
If people want to continually blank, great. They might put on a brave face for a while but, eventually, they'll drift away from fishing to expend effort into something more rewarding.

British lure fishing isn't backward, it's just untapped and totally under-rated. Most forums, articles and magazines treat the British lure angler like a muppet. Most other parts of the world are informative and heavily into lure fishing. It just so happens that their fishing in many cases is easier than ours too right ?

Wrong.

British lure fishing is out there, waiting.

Or are we going to go the way of beachcasting and still be 30 years out of date.

Ask yourself...

Why are all the modern beach rods 300 yard capable when the original design brief was to throw big baits to Cod.
The Cod fishing is knackered yet, the rods remain largely the same. thing is, now, guys are using them to winch in 6oz whiting instead.
Must be really sporting eh.

----

And yes, I don't understand people's reluctance to at least try.
 

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I think that what you have to factor in here Keith, is that we all have different expectations from the sport. We live with the limitations that exist, and make the best of our efforts around them.

For example: I know that by fishing more at night on some specific marks i know, that i could catch more. Problem is that i have a job that keeps me (reasonably ;)) busy Monday to Friday from about 7:30am until around 6:30pm. I live around 60miles from the nearest decent marks. I have a misses that works shifts as a nurse in the local hospital. I have an 8yr old that likes to come fishing with me - & who i love taking fishing with me. So, i fish at times that suit my life, and i make the best of those sessions. I don't catch as much as i'd ideally like. But i enjoy, and i won't be jacking it in any time soon.

We are all different. I think that most of us are on here because we want to learn, and there are many of us that absolutley accept that we need to adapt & change our methods - fact is that we are, but it's not happening at the pace that you guys set. You are particularly blessed on that Island with tremendous access to a huge range of marks right on your doorstep. We don't all have that.

Your message about not accepting the current paradigm is absolutely spot-on, just make sure that the message isnt lost in it's delivery ;).
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Simon, the report was written to be controversial in nature. Aimed at shaking up the haystack.

There have been a few comments and emails aimed negatively at our efforts recently, and in the past but they seem to have gone a bit quiet of late.

My aim is to make sure that anglers understand...

Fishing is only limited by your imagination and not your wallet (shouldn't happen but hype driven articles steer people towards the latest and greatest without foundation or substance). We are displaying both I hope.

Everyone has commitments but, I'm making the case for maximising the returns for the available time, not the other way around.

And, we are prepared to take the effort to share all the finding's. You are not being led up the garden path. this stuff is real and worth trying.

I'm not being hard on people. Just giving em a gentle wake up shake.

The cake tastes great. Come and get a slice.
 

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'I' know that you are playing devils advocate, and trying to get people's juices going Keith. I just want to make sure that others understand that also. You are right to point out that others have knocked your approach, and questioned the validity of your methods - and why shouldnt you call them out?? I think we all know the outcome of that exercise though ;). The results of your efforts speak for themselves now.

So much intent gets lost in the written word. I was fortunate to fish with you guys recently, and i know how passionate you feel about our sport, and your genuine hunger to help others - you'll not find a bigger supporter than me in that respect.

Don't worry, we are all paying attention.

 

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The people to take note of Simon are not me and Kev. It's not about the man, it's about the sport.

Look at young Callum as an example and a load of the guys out there proving these methods work.
A guy stopped Kev during a sponsored 15 mile walk yesterday to thank Kev for him catching his first ever lure caught Bass (multiple) HRF after reading the blog.

Well, that's wonderful imho. But, me, nor Kev caught those Bass of his. He did, using methods he'd read about on the blog.
Things like that need reporting as I think it's great. There is no way he will have replicated exactly what we do either. He will be fishing 'his' interpretation.
He did something different and got 'different' results. Fair play.

You know if i had my way i'd mine all topwater lures and remotely blow them all out of the water but...
I do respect the anticipation guys get with them. I used to love topwater Carp fishing for exactly that same reason but...
There were always Carp in front of me.

Totally love the sport but...
Let me be honest. I get far more out of others catching fish and understanding why. So does Kev.
In fact, Kev hooked up on Sat night and immediately stepped out to let Callum in. How many guys would do that.

We do it all the time. Pass on the pleasure of fishing for all to enjoy.

I wish the bad side of the fishing www would vanish too. However, just sitting back and allowing anti's to constantly trash your efforts is tiresome.
I think we've answered any criticism quite nicely actually. And, we only shown them what we want them to see. There is so much more should you fish with us.
As you know Simon. It's a blast in a group of guys that are catching.
 

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Regardless of what you read elsewhere, Bass stocks are more threatened now than ever before. If people continue to impart the same effort for forever diminishing returns, the sport will not survive. End of story. All the best intent in the world won't stop it imploding because it will all be based upon hype and hollow promise.
Keith: I am really interested in this point. Instinct tells me this must be right. There is unprecedented pressure from what I read.

However, I chatted with a fisheries guy last year, who said that there is no evidence at all that bass stocks are under pressure in the Channel or round the Channel Islands. In fact, bass have extended their location dramatically in the past 10 years. They are now found in almost every river estuary in southern England (right up to Teddington loch on the Thames), and all year round around the entire British coast.

Are you quoting published stats on this - or is this instinct?

Cheers,


Jim
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Ask youself why...

They want to impose a limit on your catches.
And, Simon Bossy has openly admitted reduced catches per unit of effort in the last 10 years.

I won't get into politics on here but
The fishing used to be way easier.

Let me also say.
Fish in numbers doesn't mean healthy. You can have a pond full of stunted fish and that can indicate imminent collapse.

Based upon knowledge AND instinct because the facts are being corrupted locally.

Enough said. Go PM for more or we'll chat next time out.
 

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Regardless of what you read elsewhere, Bass stocks are more threatened now than ever before. If people continue to impart the same effort for forever diminishing returns, the sport will not survive. End of story. All the best intent in the world won't stop it imploding because it will all be based upon hype and hollow promise.

This is why we have embraced HRF and LRF, to enhance the catch regardless of species.
Lure fishing is more than watching a topwater plug splash about for hours on end. Maybe not for you, maybe not for the mainstream but, blanking teaches people nothing.
If people want to continually blank, great. They might put on a brave face for a while but, eventually, they'll drift away from fishing to expend effort into something more rewarding.
Quite a lot of points to take in over your various posts but in essence you seem to be saying "fish at night, or don't bother at all". In which case I think you are spot on about it imploding as nowhere near as many people will have the time or the inclination.
 

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Your message about not accepting the current paradigm is absolutely spot-on, just make sure that the message isnt lost in it's delivery ;).
Yep, absolutely my only point for even saying anything as well Si.

We don't actually differ as much as you think Keith. Probably more than anyone on this side of the channel this year I've been out doing pretty much everything you've been talking about. Bass after dark(!)(doesn't faze me any more, but can understand why people would be reluctant), HRF, LRF etc etc, and catching! If my comments sounded negative from my own part, that wasn't my intention. I am 100% for doing all of it. My own thoughts are positive but (you know what you're like) I don't want others to feel intimidated or put off by the enthusiasm about techniques they're never likely to try or have time to master. I know that from my own experience, I've learnt so much new stuff this year that at times I have been out and begun to question myself quite often, losing confidence for maybe half a session. Everything's obviously been thrown out of the basket this year and pretty much everything is new. As somebody who has a fairly good grasp on what's going on, and being someone who can fish almost as often as you guys, my thoughts are really with the people who are: a) not quite so experienced, and b) don't have the time to keep up. All this new stuff can also have a negative affect on people's catches; If every time they're fishing at the moment they're out trying new stuff that you're talking about (and not quite grasping it), confidence allround can quickly decrease. As a result people naturally go back to doing what they we in the first place and just being happy to catch the odd bass in daylight, and from that point in rule out the other stuff as being useless - even if the real reason they're knocking it is just because they hadn't figured it out. Kind of "Blame your tackle" syndrome. Quite common! I just don't want to see this momentum ruined when people don't get the results they're expecting. I'm not slating anyone, but we're all at different stages of learning with different capacities to learn. I definitely, definitely don't want you to stop writing and I'd never say a bad word against them, but if anything right now, there's potentially too much good info coming through for some people to keep up. An LRF session, an HRF session and a night bass session - that's 3 trips out. Some guys won't do that many within the next month, or even 2. Yet everybody still wants to learn at the same pace. Tricky.

I know that you already put a huge amount of time and effort in to fishing, writing and sharing all of this stuff, but with so much stuff going on now, how about categorising it in to stages? Firstly styles (HRF, LRF and Bass) and inside those splitting them in to 'Learner', 'Intermediate' and 'Advanced'? As much as we all like to think that we'll understand everything, people don't. Plenty of times I've seen people misinterpret all sorts of advanced stuff, and if people get off on the wrong heel worrying themselves too much with information overload, I think it can be destructive. Up until this year most people were still only mastering shallow diving plugs - in daylight. Many still haven't got that far yet. Now we have about 10,000 other things to be doing as well, thanks to you guys.

I'll say again, definitely 100% not knocking your articles, information sharing, effort, knowledge etc, I just don't want people to become confused or feel inadequate if their results do't keep up with yours. I want everybody to try these things as well, but just at a comfortable pace that they can handle.
 

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guy's,

before this turn's into some kind of argument or heated discussion.

we're not trying to say look at what we catch and you lot are fu**ing useless,

it's not about the only time to catch fish is in the dark(even though it is the best time,lol)

it's about trying to get people to understand there are fish about, but if your not getting the results on top water's,or any other method your using it's maybe because they don't want them yet, so fish something else.

as keith wrote, if what your doing insn't working change your presentation or expect the same results, we were the same as everyone else on here 20 yrs - 30 yrs ago, would go out with one method and if we didn't catch it must be that there weren't any fish, WRONG, it's that we didn't give the fish what they wanted in our presentation.

if people want to read learner stages, there is so much info in the googan's guide to double or triple people's catch rate's over a single year if it's applied.

most people would benefit more from having a 3hr drive each way to fish an area that produces fish for only 45mins at the right time rather than having a 30min each way drive and fishing 12 hours at the wrong time.

not everyone as the time we spend fishing, maybe not, but i work 5-6 days a week up at 6-6.30 home by 5.30, then take dogs, get dinner, fish, in by 2am get 4hrs sleep,back to work.

if you want the results with fishing there aren't to many short cut's and takes a lot of hard work, were offering those short cuts on a plate, with all the info that goes up, the catch reports are there to show you that there are fish about if you know how to change your approach and presentation to get them.

fishing for both me and keith is not about a hobby, it's always been a passion maybe even obsession, but either way, it's aways been about learning and pushing the bounderies further and further each and everytime we go, even if you fail to catch, don't always blame it on there's no fish there, do your home work learn the tides, read the structure, find the current, find the pattern, choose your presentations on water clarity, etc, etc and you'll start to get more and more fish, if your not catching and choose not to change expect the same old results.

all the best

kev
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Kevin said:
if you want the results with fishing there aren't to many short cut's and takes a lot of hard work, were offering those short cuts on a plate, with all the info that goes up, the catch reports are there to show you that there are fish about if you know how to change your approach and presentation to get them.
Exactly.

I agree totally with what Kevin has written but the quotation stands out.
People can 'choose' to absorb what we put out or not.

The difference between condesending and helping is a fine line. I crossed that line on purpose to draw a reaction.
If you guys knew how many blokes email, txt, PM, or call me about the topic "We are sick of blanking" you'd be amazed.

When asked if they have tried anything new the answer is mostly the same. No.

I put out this article and thread to ask the question "why" people don't change faced with an arm full of info and tons of photo's and testimonials from a load of Channel Islanders who are having a blast most of the time whilst, all around that nucleus, results are in general, quite poor.

Do people understand what we are writing ?
Do they really care ?
Is it worth continuing to write it down or, should we use another medium to deliever the methods ?

And...
Yes, we understand this is 'cutting edge' but, we are not knocking anyones effort. We are saying...
Jeez, look at this, it fu**ing works great, loads of guys are getting it right and results are s**t hot.

All that with the added bonus that me and Kev have now lost count of the Bass we've caught HRF.
Plugs will have their day, but that day is not today, nor has it been the last few months.

The controversial bit was aimed squarely at the 'we've done it all before' contingent. However, you won't see their results, nor will they share anything with you.
That is thier perogative of course but, it's not our prime directive. We just want to see guys catch fish and we are left wondering what to do to achieve that without actually clubbing some of you over the head and taking you to a Bass mark unconscious.

If anyone on here was offended by this thread or my article, trust me, it was aimed bi-directionally.
It had the desired effect. LOL

we're not trying to say look at what we catch and you lot are fu**ing useless
No we aren't unless your name begins with B and ends in N.
LOL
 

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No we aren't unless your name begins with B and ends in N.
LOL
damn it, i'm trying to think of other names other than mine but can't. Doh!

P.s. That's not what I meant to imply either, if I did. I'll be leaving now.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Ben:

I don't get offended by people giving true and honest opinion as long as they offer counter argument.
Also, people being quiet teaches 'us' nothing in return.

We want...

"Keith, tried that but, we found this made it work better or, we found that yes, it does work here too", or, "That methods sucks".
Either comment type is good if they 'have' actually tried it, and more than once.

This is why it's been great getting visual and audible confirmation of the LRF and HRF patterns from a great bunch of blokes who have taken a punt.
 

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Keith, I'm not even sure what the argument is any more. I'm on your side!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not one of the haters you're talking about.
 

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Can someone move this thread to the WSF forums? lol

Keith, I understand your point mate, really I do but the initial delivery was a bit on the sharp side for most people who enjoy fishing as a hobby, okay so maybe it wasn't aimed at them but that wasn't quite clear...

Personally, I'd love to try all these different methods and times of day but living in Hertfordshire and having a family it's not always acheivable. I have just purchased a lovely new LRF rod and some more softies so it's not like I'm not open to different methods.

I have to drive at least an hour and a half or two hours before I can get anywhere near a decent mark and then my time is often limited. For people like myself though it's not always about catching, I couldn't give a monkeys if I blank most trips, its just about getting out there and enjoying it.

Having said that, people like me will ask how to improve their catch rate during daylight hours, for some of us it's often all we have. I'd love to learn more, I'm a novice I admit that and when people like me ask about catching during the day it's because we're much lower down the learning curve than others. It's likely these people asking you for info are interested in learning more about different retrieves for the lures they have, tide states and watercraft rather than what other times/methods they can try because for those of us unlucky buggers than live inland its not always feasable to fish at night miles from home.

I agree though, those that flog the same dead horse everytime they go out deserve nothing in return


but on the flip side, if those people are asking you how they can improve.....then haven't they already taken the first step to trying something new?
:)
 
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