It depends fully on what you're trying to do Nige. If you're only fishing hard baits then I can fully see your point and do agree. If you want to go anywhere within 10 yards of a soft bait though, you'll NEED to fish lighter otherwise you won't have a clue what it's doing in the water - unless you've got an ounce of lead attached.

 

I was wondering about this yesterday when I came across this Youtube vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwp7EgU6Z54&feature=related at ∼ 1mins he's talking about using 17lb fluoro or 50lb braid. With SPs...

 

It's one of those things I find difficult to understand until you actually try both side by side so to speak. Heavy braid is thicker and therefore has more surface area, therefore has more resistance to water passing over it. Trying to make a delicate action lure do what it's supposed to do gets hindered by the natural movement of water over and around the braid. It's a bit like stiring paint. Use a bamboo cane and it's stir fine, use a 1" broom handle and you'll struggle to stir the paint. The lure needs to move the water around it and if the braid is far to thick then the lure action is restricted. It's very very noticeable when vertical jigging. You can get a 10gr jig head down 60 ft of water and feel it hit the bottom with 10lb braid. Put 30lb braid on and the natural movevment and density of the water moves the braid into a bow, so when you lower the rod tip you just bow the line more and you can't feel the bottom. The thinner it is the less water resistance, the straighter the line drops. Add sea/tide movements and it make things 10x worse. Same applies to rivers over lakes and ponds. You can't use heavy braid on Pike lures in rivers unless you have more weight on the end to keep your line straight as it try to bow in the current.

 

I was wondering about this yesterday when I came across this Youtube vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwp7EgU6Z54&feature=related at ∼ 1mins he's talking about using 17lb fluoro or 50lb braid. With SPs...

He does say with 1/2 or 3/4 oz jigs Timbo. I never use one that big. Even 1/2oz. It's all 3-7g stuff for me.

I think it's a difficult conversation to have online because quite often we all just assume that each other member on here is doing the same type of fishing as us, in the same conditions, with the same lures, for the same fish. Lots are hard bait obsessed. Lots soft bait obsessed. Lots of inbetweeners, and then there are the Ultra Lights. 40lb braid won't do it all, but it will do some of it....

 

On the water resistance thing, 40lb braid is only around the same thickness as 12lb mono, I think (someone will have a comparison out there). I was happily using 15lb mono for my lure fishing a few years ago, but because braid technology has progressed & braids are getting thinner we use them. But we still caught bass on 15lb mono so the thickness, water resistance etc was not an issue then, because that is all we had.
I accept that the "feel" & sensitivity is better the thinner you go line wise, but with hard lures costing a small fortune & soft plastics now not far behind, surely it's not a daft idea to think about recovering or at least having a fighting chance of recovering these expensive items from the depths.

 

It's one of those things I find difficult to understand until you actually try both side by side so to speak. Heavy braid is thicker and therefore has more surface area, therefore has more resistance to water passing over it. Trying to make a delicate action lure do what it's supposed to do gets hindered by the natural movement of water over and around the braid. It's a bit like stiring paint. Use a bamboo cane and it's stir fine, use a 1" broom handle and you'll struggle to stir the paint. The lure needs to move the water around it and if the braid is far to thick then the lure action is restricted. It's very very noticeable when vertical jigging. You can get a 10gr jig head down 60 ft of water and feel it hit the bottom with 10lb braid. Put 30lb braid on and the natural movevment and density of the water moves the braid into a bow, so when you lower the rod tip you just bow the line more and you can't feel the bottom. The thinner it is the less water resistance, the straighter the line drops. Add sea/tide movements and it make things 10x worse. Same applies to rivers over lakes and ponds. You can't use heavy braid on Pike lures in rivers unless you have more weight on the end to keep your line straight as it try to bow in the current.

Brilliant answer.
If you think about it on the whole pike lures are much larger and therefore the diameter of the line in relation to lure size is probably similar to a standard bass lure on lighter braids.
Using thicker braid on a 10" swimbait may not have much affect due to the physical presence of the lure but with a smaller standard bass minnow combined with tides wind etc etc it could be enough to kill the actions on some of the popular lures..
That said I cant see how using one of the newer generations 8 braids in 40/50lb strengths wouldn't just be the same as using 20lb power pro??

 

hi nigel
this is an issue which first came about when drennan tackle first launched their "double stregth" mono in the 90s, many anglers simply changed from their usual monos like sylcast or maxima to the ds mono in the same breaking strain and promptly condemed it for being rubbish which snapped if you used it even anywhere a snag or weed. however if you used a comparative diameter rather than breaking strain there were real gains to be had, you could even "split the difference" and benefit with both dia and breaking strain.
as you say, some of us were using 12 /15lb monos not long ago, so if casting distance is not critical why not use thicker braids and leader? i agree that certainly for lrf and light sp fishing braid diameter is vitally important but if you just use an outfit for hard bait or top water fishing why not up your braid strength if only to avoid losing £20 lures so often.
i have been using 30lb braid and 25lb flouro leaders this year and for most of my fishing i cant think of a reason that i"d want to go any lighter it s definatly got me a few lures back from snags which i would have lost with lighter gear.
one last point is that with any braid its difficult to detect any abrasion damage compared to mono so its nice to have a bit of an xtra margin, as we dont allways kno when your braids getting ruffed up!.
p.s. i am a lure loser too but i just dont like to!.

 

Yep, the difference in 'feel' is significant with the thinner braids. Yep, it'd be nice to have a higher success rate in getting lures back from snags . . . but . . . i dont tend to lose 'that' many lures into snags to be honest. I used to lose far more, but since having more & more water-time with my lures, i find that i understand their swimming depths pretty well, and therefore don't tend to make as many basic errors in putting hard lures into harms-way.

For example, i used to lose DTM's with horrendous regularity, but i really cant remember losing any last year (probably did lose one, but certainly no more than 2 all year).

In the majority of cases when i lose a lure, there's some element of 'bad angling' involved - cast into a shallow gully . . . . get a couple of 'warning bumps' off a reef, but cast there again anyway . . . . poor accuracy when aiming for a small gap . . . . etc . . . . . & frankly, if you get your braid around a rock, then it doesnt matter if it's 20lb, 30lb or 60lb, it's gonna break.

In the majority of cases, when im able to retrieve a lure from a snag, it's probably due to it being weed / kelp etc . . as frankly, that's when the strength of the braid / knots / clip come into play.

Also, i find that some little tricks that you pick-up along the way can also 'massively' reduce lure losses. I find that the 2 best tactics are . . .

1) Quick action when you feel the snag: If you feel the lure going into the snag you can aften avoid going in too far, and can quickly stop or steer the lure away (how many times have you lost a lure whilst not-concentrating ?).

2) Patients: Dont be too quick to go for the old 'straight pull'. Using the motion of the waves & just waiting for the lure to float itself up out of a snag can work in an aweful lot of cases.

So, in my case, i really dont rate the issue of losing lures that highly in my thought process. Primarily because i dont lose many these days (other than those exceptional days that im sure we all have, when nothing seems to want to free-up), and also because i want the benefits of that extra 5% or 10% of feel.

As has already been said above, the issue is critical when fishing s/p's as that's the main time that i find that having the right equipment makes the most difference (versus fishing hard lures).

We're all different though, and i know guys that are mortified to lose a lure. If that's how you feel about your lures, then definately scale things-up a little. I think it'll always just be a personal thing. Guys using thin braids & not losing many lures are unlikely to change their ways (& will probably seek out thinner braids), guys who get a lot of satisfaction from retrieving lures from snags, and perhaps who are fishing primarily hard lures are unlikely to be 'comfortable' fishing lighter.

It's just one of those areas where there are fundamental differences in thought-process between anglers (like the topics of leaders, clips, rod length, etc . . . ).

Afterthought: I probably lose more lures into trees whilst Pike fishing these days than anywhere else. Bad angling if ever there was . . . .

 

"We" do!

Mostly for bass in amongst very heavy japweed beds. A bit like fishing for pike in lily pads I guess, but I've never done that.

 

A bit like fishing for pike in lily pads I guess, but I've never done that.

Yep, im going heavier for that this year. 30lb 8 Strand.

 

Yep, I'm with you on this one Si, As I've got more experienced using hard lures I find that I lose very few.........:-D:-D
but we are making the basic error of assuming all braids of the same breaking strain are the same thickness. If you are worried about losing lures I would look around and find the strongest braid with the thinnest diameter. Whiplash pro Crystal for instance has been put down on here many times for its poor castability, wind knots etc but I have a spool of I think 35lb and use it solely for rough unknown ground. It is much thinner than the widely used and loved Powerpro which I also use and most of the rest as well. I use it not because I don't like losing lures although that is a bonus, I really don't see the point of fishing light over heavy ground when you don't have to. The last thing I want is to lose a Bass with a lure still stuck in it.
I also have to say that I've never had any problem with wind knots or the like with whiplashpro. Shop around you can get heavier line with out losing sensitivity or bulking the diameter.

 

I can't see that 40lb (or 50lb or 80lb) offers any advantage whatsoever.

- It offers no advantage in fighting the fish as most reels can't exert that much drag anyway.
- Most rods that you can actually cast with would snap at a fraction of that weight if you were to try and dead lift it.
- Assuming 100% knot efficiency (not easily achievable) then you would need to fish a fluoro leader of the same breaking strain, which would cut down on your takes IMHO.

I agree that if you fish braid straight through to the lure, then with a good lure knot you can exert more pressure on a snagged lure and bend out the hooks. But quite frankly, I'd rather lose a few lures as the disadvantages vastly outweigh the cost of the lures IMHO.

 

The only advantage around heavy jap weed is that if a fish does get weeded in I can pull it and the weed to the boat, rather than risk a break off and leave the lure in the fish. I'd rather not leave lures in fish.

 

Clifford it has to give some advantage using heavier braking strain otherwise we'd all be happy using 10lb line....

As far as the reel strength goes have a look at the 30lb to 40lb fish caught in Norway last year on small reels.
A decent rod will take it mate again take a look at the norway thread.....
True about the leader if you're going to use one in those circumstances...

And finally as Paul said we're not bothered about the lures...experience will help you lose a lot less.....we're talking about preventing a fish needlessly being left with a lure in it......

 

I always though and the reason I use such heavy braid for jerkbaiting etc for pike is to reduce the chance of leaveing one of those big lures in a fishes mouth should the worst happen and the line go. It doesnt take much to work out the effects a big jerkbait or a bulldawg would have on a fish when it comes to feeding etc if it was stuck in its mouth stiching its jaws together. Its the only justification i can see for fishing so heavy and unbalanced, really with line that strong you can horse pretty much anything that swims in our waters and is overkill except when taking fish welfare into consideration.

Obviously this has the bonus effect of helping retrieve stuck lures...

Marty

 

Trev,
Actually Cliff is making some good points, Even in Norway with rods bent to the handle they wouldn't be generating more than say 5-8lb of drag. No matter what the rod is, if the drag exceeds the max dead lift of the rod-You have to go and buy a new rod.
Fishing heavy braids is counter productive, reduced casting distance, less feel/control of the lure, so you are less efficient as an angler. Given that I can and do bend out trebles from snags with 16lb/1PE braid, fishing heavier braid gains me nothing. If you tie the right knots carefully, and if snagged increase the pressure slowly and carefully.
Heavier braid will allow you to be somewhat more aggressive during retrieving a snagged lure, isn't going to help land any more fish (exspect in Paul B's weeded fish situation).

Oh as someone that was around pike fishing during the jerkbait "revolution", we didn't use 80lb spiderwire for retrieving lure from snags or because we were worried are leaving lures in fish-We used 80lb to avoid cracking off expensive, hard to get lures-lures to 5oz and super stiff short rods aren't very forgiving!!, and because heavier braids have slightly more stiffness which meant the lure running over the braid and tangling happened less often.

 

Yep agreed Dave but you are on a straight pull when snagged and again I disagree about the "heavy braid" assumption if you are using thinner or as thin braid of a higher rating it doesn't make it heavier surely. I suspect that Whiplash pro got a bad name because people were buying it by strength and not diameter.When lines get this fine you have to change your fishing style to suit and I would argue that this fine is really for LRF not your hard plastic use....unless you happen to be very experienced. For instance Whiplash is 0.06mm at 20lb and Powerpro is 0.15 for 20lb almost a third the diameter. Whiplash is 0.10 at 30lb and 0.17mm at 50lb. I would say most of us have a spool of Powerpro 20lb in our bags or on a spare spool. So if you could get 40lb whiplash it would still be thinner and lighter. Where is the disadvantage in using a stonger line of the same or thinner diameter???
I tried experimenting with high strength monos and braids for beach casting some time ago and found that there was minimum diameter below which any light abraiding or wear meant losses or too regular change out of line and for me this still goes. Braids are getting finer and finer but also stronger and stronger but they still cut and wear very easily if used on the wrong ground. Unless you're careful some of these ultra fine lines are almost unfishable in some conditions.

Or am I just talking B*ll*cks again.
Nice debate Clifford...Dave..

 

I guess it depends on what we are talking about, if we take two braids of equal diameter then of course the stronger braid generally would be the better option, But it is alot harder trying to compare braids of differing strengths and diameters.
Have to tell you I have used 20lb whiplash, forget the quoted diameter- As it like rope compared to the 1PE YGK I am now using. and that is meant to be thicker than the Whiplash.
I guess my point is that even 20lb braid is hugely more than is needed to play and land bass, free lures and tie good knots. Given that we are already using lines that are far stronger than 99% of us need-How will using even stronger braids benefit us in catching bass??

 

No you are not talking b00llocks Trev

 

as a pike angler the main reason we use 80-100lb braid for jerks is the diameter is comparable to 15-18lb mono which is what we would be using at the lighter end of the scale for lines when casting 4 ounces of wood and lead

why does this seem horribly unbalanced??? because rather than risk crack offs by using stupidly light braid there is a built in error margin, lets face it we use multis so we dont loose any distance, it helps getting lures back; lets not forget the average jerkbait has a pair of hooks around 1/0-3/0 which in sea fishing you would be looking at pirk set ups. As a comparison for the lure rod line combo how would those who fish with moderate boat gear 20-30lb class rods compare them to a jerkbait rod that casts around 3-4 ounce
i know my one boat rod 20lb abu is far lighter in its action than any of my jerkbait set ups even the lightest of them nash 70 has a load more power in the but than the boat rod